Curse

Loviatar · Mar 27, 2005, 04:27 PM // 16:27

actually the initial planning was to schedule it for the first weekend of the month but work schedules and the additional content of pre seared askalon pushed it back 2 weeks

everybody still got their BWE and i personally enjoyed the new scenery much more than i pouted over the delay

Aria · Mar 27, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Forgive me for just copying and pasting my argument from another forum.

But this is the -exact- same thing that cropped up almost two months ago after the Feb BWE..

My argument also made reference to a post that was previously made by Dreamsmith.

The original poster had the same view as Arcala, and had said as his last line "Unreasonable and ungrateful to expect what I pay for."

This is my response to that line, written early Feb:

There are differing views on what a preorder is.. but I think it's nonetheless important to always keep in mind the original intent of preorders. In the normal sense of the word, a preorder is not a purchase of a product, but rather a "spot in line" to buy the product when it's released. Thus, even if you pay for a preorder, it's like a downpayment -- a gesture on your part to acknowledge that you will buy the actual product when it's released, and at the same time, also a promise by the company to save you a copy at release -- a promise solidified by the act of taking of your money.

Now, lets go back to your original point of having "paid" for a service. Well.. ANet isn't exactly generating revenue from this service. When they add benefits to preordering -- they're exactly that: benefits, not rights. Your only traditional right is a copy of the game upon release. You didn't exactly pay anything, as the cost of the preorder will be deducted from the cost of the real game after release. And if you don't buy the final game, then as is expected, the fee is forfeited.

Now, because ANet set these benefits, they do have an obligation to fulfill what they advertised on the preorders. However, like many others, I would have to regretfully say, "Don't be so greedy." This isn't aimed at you, [original poster name taken out], as much as it's directed at the general population. To clarify: I don't see ANet's exact words on the preorder box as a promise in a binding, legal contract, but rather a clarification of the benefits previously mentioned. Now, we've had an November, December, and January BWE. And when they say "at the first week of each month," I take it not so much as a promise, but rather an elaboration and an added detail to head off the inevitable questions of "when will they be???"

And those three BWEs are a good amount of benefit alone, considering that when you order something such as a book, you don't even expect a benefit of 10 pages every first week of each month until release. However, isn't it entirely plausible that in getting ever closer and closer to the release date, things are bound to change and fluctuate as situations demand -- changes aimed at the primary goal and promise of ANet: to release a working, polished game.

Of course, in addition, there are also the benefits of the items, as well as name reservations.

Sure, ANet promised benefits -- but I strongly believe that people cross the line when they start demanding more playtime as "rights" for preordering. The traditional right of preordering, again, is a copy of the game upon release, nothing more. A game in development is prone to unexpected delays, sudden changes in schedule due to unforseen bugs, additional content added, etc. But ANet has done wonderfully, and remained above all my expectations in terms of promises. So before anyone screams about rights, think about the huge benefits you've already gained for just preordering. And if you preordered too late for most of the beta weekend events.. I'm sorry, but that's not ANet's fault.

What you paid for is a right to buy the game upon release, with extra added benefits. Somehow, the preorder of this game has been twisted around so that the primary product is not the promise of a copy of the final game, but rather play time -- which is not what a preorder is intended to do. In other words, like Dreamsmith said: unreasonable expectations. The exact definition of those benefits, to me, is flexible, as they've already delivered many -many- more additional benefits than ANY preorder has. Sadly.. at the risk of offending some people.. at this point in time, I sometimes suspect that ANet might have spoiled us too much.. and true to human nature, all we begin to do is to glut ourselves, forgetting our gratefulness while we demand and scream for more.

John Thomas · Mar 27, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Look, I'm with Arcala on this from a contractual perspective, but understand the practical perspective...When purchasing a product, you enter into a contract between seller and buyer. BloodRayne pre-order was a disappointement because PC version came a year later than console, though they were all slated for simultaneous release (ended up never playing the game), Vampire Masquerade: Bloodlines pre-order was a disapointment because the price was raised $10 from when I put my deposit down and the company (EB) refused to give me the lower price (not to mention they (not EB) dropped the idea of multi-player after I put my money down).

Whenever you pre-order and a game comes out months after a posted release date, the company is in breach of this contract...Now, I've been pissed-purple over this in the past, but have come to learn this: you can rail against the wind, or you can go fly a kite (I prefer the kite).

Practically speaking, software development is one of, if not THE, most conceptually fluid industries in existance...no matter your plans, hopes, dreams or contracts...you cannot rely on this industry to remain rigid in scheduling...I don't think it "selfish" to want the company to honor its contract (which, by the way, was altered after signature ie: script of it changed AFTER money paid)...At the same time I realize this was done without malice or the intent to cheat anyone...yeah, we were deprived of the expected schedule...the painting analogy would work better if folks decided Saturdays were better than Sundays to paint and the painters came six days late...

All in all, you have a right to be ticked, and without guilt...as for the majority rule mole-archy...pull your head out of the sand...It doesn't matter what everyone else seemed to want, majority or not...a change was made to the contracted schedule without the consult of the purchasing party and therefore a contract was in breach unless disclaimer was noted at time of sale...Given the nature of the industry, it should be expected.

It has become a "given" in my personal experience that these things happen more often than not...From the anet perspective, they were just trying to give you the best experience possible and probably realized late in the day, that the original "first weekend" wasn't practical given their need to get new content to the customer...I'm not saying you should jump for joy, after all...you had plans for that weekend that had to be shuffled around... but you will, in the long run, benifit from the development, no matter the schedule changes...

For those who think Arcala is being selfish...I disagree...I've been there and no matter how people justify what happened, it will remain a negative memory and can't be made right. When the game is released, it will slip away into the past, but it's still fresh now and a little empathy here on the part of the rest of us can help the transition from past to future...Saying someone has no right to be upset over something they feel they have every right to be upset about is like picking at someone else's scab...it makes the scar deeper (not that anyone can be emotionally scarred from the lateness of a BWE...that's just stupid...I have had no plans about clock towers or weapons permits...NONE OF YOU CAN PROVE ANYTHING...*pets dead bunny*...BloodRayne2 must be stopped....)

Loviatar · Mar 27, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

to add one small thing i have noticed in comments elsewhere

people will complain about a bug and when asked if they hit /bug and reported it the answer was

i was too busy playing to do that

the whole purpose is to find and report bugs so it is better for all of us while having fun

and they are to busy to /bug

greedy and thoughtless sums up some of them

Arcala · Mar 27, 2005, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Aria, I would've agreed with you, but what I brought wasn't a preorder with benefits, it was a "Preorder pack", with stuff including in that pack. It's about how they advertised it and sold that preorder pack. It's very different from preorders you can place on other games. If I looked at it like you do, believeing the BWE's etc are "benefits", then yes, it would've been greedy, and we might've been spoiled. However, that's not how I understood it when I brought my preorder pack, and Arenanet did nothing to make that clearer. It was, as I said before, advertised as a pack with serveral things: A rebate when purchasing the game, the access to the BWE's, character name reservations, and some other things. If it wasn't for this, I wouldn'nt have had a problem with it.

John Thomas, I do agree with you. I also understand the practical perspective of this, and I didn't really expect anything else What I'm annoyed about however is Arenanet's handling of the issue. They didn't say anything about it, no "sorry, but we had to do it this way", no nothing. That's what I'm upset about - they don't even seem to care that they broke customers trust like they did. I'm just fearing they'll distance themselves from the community too much, like many other game developers do.

-Arc

Davion · Mar 27, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Beta - non-finished product testing/playing

Retail - finished product

Pre-order - chance to be involve in beta stage of game and have information to offer them by way of play experience (bugs/balancing et al..whatever)

if you really expect a non-released, still in design system to stay FULLY adherent to an individual, in a STRICTLY literal sense. You just don't want to bother....

The whole idea behind it is a work in progress.

Leave the "dead horse" alone. In the end,when you really understand it you will enjoy it a whole lot more.

As far as the interview? I've seen varying pieces of it all over the place. Rather refreshing to finally see it one spot for a change.

Aria · Mar 27, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcala

I also understand the practical perspective of this, and I didn't really expect anything else What I'm annoyed about however is Arenanet's handling of the issue. They didn't say anything about it, no "sorry, but we had to do it this way", no nothing. That's what I'm upset about - they don't even seem to care that they broke customers trust like they did. I'm just fearing they'll distance themselves from the community too much, like many other game developers do.

I'm not sure what forums you were in, but I can point you to not one, not two, but several threads where Gaile was posting actively right after Feb BWE pushback was announced. And by actively, I mean sometimes several posts in one page of a certain very crowded thread. There was no mass silence from ANet as they drew behind the iron gates of their company. They neither adopted Blizzard's antagonistic mentality of them vs. us ("them" being the players and "us" being developers), NOR did they distance themselves.

Gaile's obvious presence during those few days should be proof enough that ANet's interaction with its audience neither wavered nor broke because of that one bump in the road.

And before any of you even dare scream "fanboy!" .. lets see some proof? Well, here you go:

Gaile's posts in a thread called "February BWE date changed?"

Posted on Jan 25, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We can confirm the date change. We're excited about the opportunity to present a new region, and I promise you, you'll be amazed by what you see there. It has arguably the best art in the game, and the introduction to the Guild Wars story makes all parts of the game -- even the PvP -- more meaningful and more personal.

We're counting the days!

Jan 25, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Understood about holidays and days off and so forth. We're sorry about those. On the other hand, we're now avoiding intruding on anyone's religious services on Sunday, the 6th. You know, devout observances at the Holy Temple of the Sacred Super Bowl?

I really hope that those with the day off can shift it, and again, we're sorry about those for whom it presents a challenge. However... work isn't all of a weekend, we're starting bright and early, and I'm sure you'll all get in a lot of gaming time!

Jan. 26, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Dang, Mako, that's a great post. I'm printing that one for the team!

Jan. 26, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

((Quote from a player that I'm not including))

The Beta Weekend Events are not a stress test. Thanks, but that's not the intention and that's not the need for the events.

((Quote from a player that I'm not including))

The Super Bowl has nothing to do with this decision. Nada. Zip. Zero. I commented that it was handy that it worked out, for those who care for football, but that did not, in any way, predicate the decision. The only thing that drives this decision is the desire to provide cool new content.

((Quote from a player that I'm not including))

Not this one. There will be a very limited number of keys given to those who win contests, but no giveaways and fewer opportunities overall.

((Quote from a player that I'm not including))

I am the leader of the Community Team. I am not a PR representative. There is a large amount of difference, and I believe I've already gotten into discussions here on this topic previously and won't enter them again. I have to believe that if you feel you have a point to make, you can do so less aggressively. But no matter, the point happens to be wrong. I'm not "hyping" something, and my salary is irrelevant. I'm saying that we have cool new stuff coming (we do) and we're taking two weeks to put it into this event (we are). I like it very much, and I speak of it enthusiastically. That's honesty, not hyperbole.

Jan. 26, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

((Quote from a player that I'm not including))

Oh, goodness, Crovaz, don't even go there. There's a lightyear of difference between delaying the BWE for two weeks in order to offer new content and going back on a 5-year commitment to not charge a subscription fee. No need to be a cynical pessimist, honestly! Variations, during a beta and during development, are not unusual. Features are considered and rejected, dates shift. Such are not promises. But a foundation-making philosophical commitment like the lack of a subscription fee for Guild Wars is a promise and will not be rescinded.

((Quote from a player that I'm not including))

I have the perfect solution: Hold the wedding in Tyria.

Seriously, Dizmal, all good wishes on this happy occasion!

Jan. 26, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

*clears throat* Please don't make me say it again, The Super Bowl is irrelevant to our development deadlines and our events. The Super Bowl has nothing whatever to do with the placement of the event on the 17th. It's nice that some football fans are happy about the change, but the change was not about football fans.

Neither rain, nor sleet, nor snow, nor blink of 10-yard marker will delay our dev team from the swift completion of its appointed tasks.

Let us give a good think on releasing a little something in advance of the event. On the one hand, it might be nice for you to see the area without any preconceptions. On the other hand, you suggest that it would be helpful to have something to "tide you over" until the event. We'll definitely give this some thought, and thanks for the suggestion.

Jan. 26, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

((Quote from a player that I'm not including))

Thanks, Bast. Once long ago, I was a writer for a fansite for a game that slipped. I'm not talking about testing slips or a two-week delay. I'm talking months. More than a year. And I remember being the one who had to post up the news, "Well, another delay." My stomach was in knots, because I knew how much that game community was looking forward to the game, and I felt the same disappointment that they felt about a long series of delays.

I will say that I do believe when we set an anticipated ship date for Guild Wars, it won't be set lightly and we will do everything in our power to honour that date. Even this two-week shift for the BWE was discussed at great length and the decision weighed carefully to make sure it was the right thing.

There's no conspiracy, and I can't see us ever giving a date with the intention of "letting it slide" in the future. We'll set dates in good faith, and any sort of release date most seriously of all.

Jan. 27, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

((Quote from a player that I'm not including))

It's ok, really. Nobody likes a delay. I've been there and done that as a fan. Sometimes people get... a little heated, but we do understand it's just because they love the game.

((Quote from a player that I'm not including))

Count on it.

((Quote from a player that I'm not including))

If people were indifferent, I would be crushed. It's cool that most fans seem to be taking this in stride. It's fully understand that some won't. And it's disappointing that personal or work schedules means that a few will miss it who may not have missed it before. But in the end, we believe this is the right way to go.

If I could, I want to address something from a post up there ^ on this page. Someone said "They don't need us for testing." Don't ever think that means "They don't value us as testers." There is a huge difference. We don't need a mass of warm bodies to see if things stay up or topple, it's true. But what about the feedback you give? The bugs that you, and only you, catch? What about systems that we don't own and can't test upon, that you alert us aren't working properly or are (a person wrote me today) below specs and still working perfectly? What about the suggestions you've made collectively and individually? The changes you fans have brought about have been very meaningful to Guild Wars. We have a vision, we have a goal, we have an obsession with getting it right and building the game that you want to play. You help us learn that, every time you join an event, every time you hit /bug and every time you add your thoughts to the Suggestions Threads. "They don't need us?" Heck, we don't want to do it without you!

...

Again, all these quotes are from ONE thread. As you can tell from the dates I've included, contrary to what some of you might think, Gaile, and thus ANet was just as active as ever during that massive reaction. You also have to remember that at the same time, Gaile was also actively responding to other threads as well.

It really aggravates me when someone says, "they don't even seem to care that they broke customers trust like they did." Ignoring the fact that I strongly disagree with the breaking of "customer trust" assertion, the fact that all of this obvious effort is glossed over by "they don't even seem to care" just simply infuriates me. Do the research. Yes, I love ANet, and I'll be the first to say that I'm loyal to a fault, but I also retain every bit of independent thinking and judgment -- this includes critical assessments. This isn't "fanboism" talking. This is fact. Go to every major forum (Guru, GWO, TGH, etc), look at Gaile's profile and look at her post history.

If you didn't hear any sort of response from ANet, the question isn't whether or not ANet withdrew. It's more, "have you been actually looking?"

And now that I've worn myself out dragging out old quotes from months ago (poor Gaile must feel like I'm stalking her), I'm going to go sit out in the sun, thank you.

Arcala · Mar 27, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

First of all, I didn't see those "i'm sorry" posts, no. Second, I don't see anywhere that it's required for you to read forums in order to be informed of whatever Arenanet is up to. Afaik they didn't post it on their official site, which is the only place I "should" have looked.

I'm not posting these things because I hate arenanet or anything, I just think a bit more would be in place from their side. For me, they've broken the trust, at least when it comes to dates and the like. Just some responses on some forums doesn't really make it any better, sorry.

Anyway, this is just my opinion, but it seems like I'm not allowed to state it without being told that what a greedy selfish bastard I am (not reffering to you Aria). Geeze.

-Arc

Loviatar · Mar 27, 2005, 10:52 PM // 22:52

i thought this was a dead issue by now

you are not paying one red cent for all the fun of the betas

you are getting it for free

it doesnt add to the cost of the game

Gaile must have more energy and patience than ?

you said the GW site was the only place you *should* have looked at?

DID YOU LOOK?

get a lawyer and sue them for breech of contract but give it a rest

can someone LOCK this thread before flames erupt?

Gaile Gray · Mar 27, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Wow, flashback to two months ago!

I really don't know what you'd expect or how you would anticipate we'd move forward, if forward movement is something you agree we need to maintain. We promised access to a monthly Beta Weekend Event. The date was changed, that's correct. Why? For the good of the game. Now, would it be better to think "We have a 'contractual obligation' with our customers to provide this, on said date, in said degree, ipso facto, ergo, and carpe diem?"

Should we be directed by those who are not developing the game, who do not develop games, who do not have an internal view of the process, and who cannot conceive of the various milestones and short-term objectives with which we operate? Should the risk of irritating a few short-sighted fans drive the development to the degree of us saying "Well, we better shuffle out the event on that date we said, even if it's not as polished an event, even if it excludes important features we very much want to show and have tested, even if preparing for the event delays release?

We're building a game, not a beta. We're building a game that people will play for a long, long time. Setting back the date of a three-day event is insignificant compared to the end objective. We regret the delay and we apologize for any inconvenience it may have caused. But any true fan knows that that the end objective is pure: To build the best game possible, using milestones and event objectives the meet that noble goal. Anyone who argues is looking through the wrong end of the periscope at what this glorous venture is all about.

I'm sorry if I sound short-tempered. But (1) this post was started many weeks ago, (2) it was cross-posted on multiple fan forums (major no-no), and (3) it was addressed fully by me, then. The whole "distancing from community" is bunkum. Asked, answered, and now you're just beating a dead Charr.

Loviatar · Mar 27, 2005, 11:10 PM // 23:10

i will accept the game when you think it is ready for us and if it is unavoidably delayed i will thank you for catching whatever it was and giving us something not broken

either way i thank you

simple

Gaile Gray · Mar 27, 2005, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

i will accept the game when you think it is ready for us and if it is unavoidably delayed i will thank you for catching whatever it was and giving us something not broken either way i thank you simple

Simple, and a very welcome sign of support. I cannot imagine that Guild Wars will be delayed in any way, shape or form. The wheels are fully in motion, and we're meeting our milestones really nicely. It's wonderful, though, to have people with the kind and wise objectives of "the best game possible" and not ironclad "date-mania" in mind.

Again, there's no delay on the horizon for the final Beta Weekend Event or for the release of Guild Wars.

Arcala · Mar 27, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

I agree with you, Gaile, apart from this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We regret the delay and we apologize for any inconvenience it may have caused.

I just don't think that part was stated clear enough at the time.

I have full understanding for that it's a game and not a beta being developed, and I have no problem seeing the practical points, as I said earlier. Just stating my opinion about what I saw as well, maybe a small lack of information/statements about the issue at that time.

Quote:

I'm sorry if I sound short-tempered. But (1) this post was started many weeks ago, (2) it was cross-posted on multiple fan forums (major no-no), and (3) it was addressed fully by me, then. The whole "distancing from community" is bunkum. Asked, answered, and now you're just beating a dead Charr.

I didn't bring this thread and issue up again, I'm just discussing other people's recent comments. I have no intention of constantly picking on an old issue.

-Arc

FireMarshal · Mar 27, 2005, 11:59 PM // 23:59

jeeeeez.....

I have never been happier with the way a company has carried itself through a game production process. It didnt bother me one tiny bit that the Beta Event dates changed, I knew that they are all working very hard and listening to OUR feedback on the game.

Have you EVER seen a company listen to the opinions and wants of the players who are buying the game? I sure have not. Anet has been above and beyond their call of duty in all aspects. The devs have done a fantastic job IMO that there is no reason at all to whine about such small details like BWE dates. Having the devs roam fansite/guild forums in search of suggestions and whatnot says a ton about how devoted they are to their objective.

my 2 cents.

Bgnome · Mar 28, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I'm sorry if I sound short-tempered. But (1) this post was started many weeks ago, (2) it was cross-posted on multiple fan forums (major no-no), and (3) it was addressed fully by me, then. The whole "distancing from community" is bunkum. Asked, answered, and now you're just beating a dead Charr.

i would personally like to thank Loviatar for resurrecting this thread after it has been dormant for over 5 weeks.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5327#post15327

Loviatar · Mar 28, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bgnome

i would personally like to thank Loviatar for resurrecting this thread after it has been dormant for over 5 weeks.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5327#post15327

touche

i missed the date and you are correct

as Gaile said better to quit beating a dead char

Aria · Mar 28, 2005, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

touche

i missed the date and you are correct

as Gaile said better to quit beating a dead char

Bah, thank you Bgnome for pointing out the date. I actually thought someone reposted this interview. Again. Teaches me for not looking at dates..

Loviatar, please try not to resurrect touchy threads like these again for no good reason.. especially since all that people end up doing is butting heads, and wind up still retaining whatever ironclad beliefs entrenched in their heads. This goes for me, as well as others.

My apologies for my tone in my previous post. I would've been much nicer had I realized that this was just a resurrected thread, and not some new, bizzare resurgence of a touchy topic that should've better been left dead.

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 28, 2005, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Personally, I think it was very effective use of the little know skill "Thread Rez". Obviously, not a technique for the novice at an extreme embaressment cost and that shame timer? Whoo, that really gets you. To say nothing of the 5% chance of modding.

Let's do try to keep it civil. And if not civil, let's try to keep this thread buried where it belongs...